Discussion at Mount Carmel

Lecture given by Dr. Kinley in 1973 in Mt. Carmel, California.

RECORDED BY EUGENE HODOH 1 90 MINUTE AUDIO CASSETTE CATALOG #: 73 MC

TRANSCRIBED BY CATHY FENTI PROOFREAD BY MICHAEL ROTHSTEIN AND GERALDINE ROTHSTEIN PROOFREAD AND APPROVED BY INTERNATIONAL PUBLIC RELATIONS COMMITTEE: 1996

TRANSCRIBER’S NOTES

1. …INDICATES THAT DR. KINLEY ENDED A WORD OR A SENTENCE WITHOUT VERBALLY COMPLETING IT.

2. AUDIENCE COMMENTS ARE INCLUDED ONLY IF MORE THAN ONE PERSON RESPONDED OR IF DR. KINLEY WAS SPEAKING DIRECTLY TO A SPECIFIC PERSON.

3. UNLESS EMPHASIZED BY DR. KINLEY PAUSE WORDS HAVE BEEN LEFT OUT OF THE TRANSCRIPT FOR THE SAKE OF EASE IN READABILITY AND COMPREHENSION (AH, UH, SEE, YOU SEE, YOU SEE WHAT I MEAN, ISN’T THAT RIGHT, UNDERSTAND, YOU UNDERSTAND, DO YOU UNDERSTAND).

4. ___ INDICATES AN INAUDIBLE WORD OR SYLLABLE

5. WORDS IN CAPITAL LETTERS ARE COMMENTS OF THE TRANSCRIBER.

DR. KINLEY: ... that somebody, when you look at all of that what you call the New Testament, when you find out that this was done because of a fulfillment of scriptures that the scriptures might be fulfilled; and what Yahshua said I about it, fulfilling and all that kinda thing. And then on top of all of that, everybody comes out and says that He was instituting, supposed to have a good, real good education too, and went to school, ____, theological school, and I'm not talking about you doc, I'm just talking, the whole thing as a whole. But it looks, just, just, just looks bad. You know that! That's really bad. And I would say this: that if a doctor went to school, I mean a medical doctor went to school, and he was, he was taught such things as backwards as the, theologians are taught, I'll tell you, you would, Hobbs1, business would be good. You can see, because they've ____ so many, be a lotta dead people because he'd be giving him something that he ought not to give him, so that it would, it'd kill him rather than to cure him. Say,

_________________________

1 Elba Hobbs was a mortician.

'This school is funny.' Don't, don't don't seem funny now since you came and learned the differences already. It really don't. It don't look right, the Catholics quote the Bible and what they call the New Testament and read as much of it as you can find in there, in His biography or the autobiography and Pauline epistles and the Acts of Apostles and on over to Revelations, about how things were done to fulfill the scriptures, then he turned around and say to you that He's instituting. Now that's, now that's just awful bad. Wouldn't you, wouldn't you say so? As much as it's... Say you'd be surprised, we don't use half, near, no ways near half of what's in there about the fulfillment. We don't, we don't use half that there is to, only half. But it just, it just seems like there's somebody somewhere at one of these educational institutions or theological seminary oughta wake up to it sometime. And then.., it's a mystery how people can say, preach and teach that's the way they think it is and all like that, and get by with just simply refusing it in an open Bible. Wouldn't you, wouldn't, wouldn't you all say so? And it is a strange, it's just a mysterious thing. Nobody knows nothing about what Yahshua was up.., now that's bad too. Not to know the names and then, and then misrepresent what He's doing. Then you want to talk about somebody being an idolater, ____ and all that kinda stuff. That's bad. Many millions of people that Rome has killed.

And when you, when you confront 'em with it. They say that.., they say, they, they say they are his priests. They contend for institution of the Lord's Supper, the mass and all that kinda stuff, and they can't prove none of it, there's nowhere about it in the Bible. That's a mighty strange thing. And that oughta let you know that there's, there's something's cast out of heaven,

(DR. KINLEY LAUGHS)

and don't know. And everybody following the devil because you just can't, just can't find Yahweh. And you don't act right because you're full of the devil. You got one of his imps in you. Then when you do act right, you wanna say that's wrong. I'll tell you, it's actually something funny. And I just, I just heard 'em.., Dr. Williams, or Dr. Harris or Roland or somebody, and I listened... In the end, that if anybody could come up with anything any better than what we have been taught and talk about down here, well, I'd like to hear that. Wouldn't you?

(DR. KINLEY LAUGHS)

At least we do state what the Bible does say. And their idea of ful.., 'Well we know that Jesus fulfilled the Passover, but He instituted the Lord's Supper.' How He fulfilled baptism here with the jews, but He instituted Christian baptism and what kind of foot washings was here; that's supposed to be the washing of regeneration. Well yes. He fulfilled footwashing and He instituted the washing of regeneration when He's washing feet. Now it's bad, because.., and we're living right down here in the end of the age, where the people out here.., conditions in the world that are really bad.

Roger, when we was over at, about an hour, or an hour and a half up the coast ____ ____ . We call ourselves going up there fishing, and see polluted water and up there, and the water was just as dirty as it could be. There wasn't nobody ____ with it either. It ____ ____ ____.

DR. RONALD GRIGGS: Doc, did the, did the Messiah have any physical ailments?

PERSON: Did He have any physical ailments?

DR. KINLEY: Yes, He did.

DR. RONALD GRIGGS: I'm not talking psychological. I know spiritually...

DR. KINLEY: No. He had physical impairments. He had trials just like we do. Yes. If He had not, had done that.., now this is the reason behind it. This is it: if He, if He hadn't have suffered as we do, then you could say, 'Well, He could undergo those things because He was different than what we were.'

PERSON: Is that in the Book anywhere?

DR. KINLEY: Yes, it's in the book. If it wasn't in there, I wouldn't never say so. Yahshua ____ and everything else, just like we do, and He suffered. I don't have a concordance here, but if I had a concordance, I can find it, you can read it. But that was not a body full of sin or a sinful body. Where'd we stop.

EUGENE HODOH: 53rd chapter of Isaiah DR. KINLEY: Huh? EUGENE HODOH: 53rd chapter of Isaiah DR. KINLEY: That's it, read.

EUGENE HODOH: Who has believed our report and to whom is the arm of Yahweh revealed, for He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant and as a root out of a dry ground. He hath no form or comeliness and when we shall see Him there is no beauty that we should desire Him. He is despised and rejected of men, a man of sorrow and acquainted with grief and we hid as it were our faces from Him. He was despised and we esteemed Him not.

DR. RONALD GRIGGS: Okay now, does that mean then, does that mean though that He had any, is that actually saying that He had any physical infirmities, because you also can go over there and and it talks about how Israel was ____.

DR. KINLEY: Let me give it to you this way, Ronnie, real quick. You remember when John the Baptist was in prison and he said, John the Baptist sent his disciples down there and they asked him: was he the Messiah or should they look for another? And he told them to go back and tell him of that what all was going on. Now, what I'm getting after is this: says when I was sick and in his prison, you visited me not, but you visited me. Yes, He had... And when He was going through Samaria there and set on the well, He was tired and worn out. And they had gone to town to buy victuals and food and all. Now if He is tired and worn out and, and had infirmities and inflictions and all that kinda thing, just as we do. Now if it hadn't have been, there wouldn't have been anything for Him to boast about, well there wouldn't have been any, wouldn't have been any advantage in it, in, in, in coming, because we could have said, 'Well, He's just from different offspring.' Yes, He suffered, when they drove the nails all in His hands. And He said, 'Before I suffer.' And He told them certain things before He suffered. Yes, He was afflicted, infirmities. Indeed. If it had not been for that, let me clinch it by saying this, if it had not been for that, they couldn't have put Him to death; in other words, I mean that He couldn't.., they, they couldn't nail Him to the cross and then, then He'd die, if He hadn't been subject to death as Yahshua. Now that's what I'm talking about. Course I understand what you mean by what you've heard, fully understand it.

DR. RONALD GRIGGS: Well, I know that He had to suffer the cross, the crucifixion itself, the agony and the short 33 years.

DR. KINLEY: See that was a sacrificial body, it was not a sinful body. I don't want you to think I'm saying that it was a sinful body because it was not. But so far as flesh and blood is concerned, He was flesh and blood just like we are.

DR. ROBERT HARRIS: John said in 1:14 that the Word was made flesh

(THERE ARE SEVERAL INAUDIBLE SENTENCES HERE)

DR. KINLEY: Yeah, I understand what he's talking about. If He hadn't suffered adversities and all like we do, why then He would have had the advantage over us. And we are the weaker and consequently subject to sin and misconduct and like that. What it really does, it shows the power of the Holy Spirit. Now the body itself, the physical body, has to undergo a change, it doesn't make a difference who's body it is, has to undergo a change. And that's the same thing that happened to Him. Now if He was already that way, then He couldn't have underwent no change. It is just a manifestation of the power of Yahweh to make something like that. And even John the Baptist, he was full of the Holy Spirit right from his mother's womb but he went through life until he got down there in the prison, then he said, 'Art thou the Messiah?' after saying 'Behold the Lamb of Yahweh which takes away the sins of the world.' And he saw the Spirit descend on Him and a lotta people think that's when Jesus got the Holy Ghost there, but that isn't so. He was the personification of it. And then I'll just put it like this. The majority of the churches preach it just like the Roman Catholic Church does, meaning this: they have God the Father over here, and God the Son over here, and then God the Holy Ghost; three distinctive individual personalities. Well that just really is not so. Now somebody says, 'Well, how do you know, and where you find that at, and how do you get that?' Deuteronomy 6:4, I believe it is, says, 'Hear oh Israel, Yahweh thy Elohim is Yahweh a unity,' not three different distinctive individuals. And I would say this, if you can look in the Bible, (now listen to what I'm gonna say now) if you can look in the Bible and see that He was fulfilling, you couldn't expect no better for him to say that there were three different distinctive individuals. If you can't read that, if you can't understand that, the difference between institution and fulfillment. You understand what I'm talking about?

DR. RONALD GRIGGS: Yes, sir.

DR. KINLEY: And it's, it's, it's, it's a terrible thing. And you can just say that it's worldwide too. All that stuff is... And you look, look right straight at it and you put your finger right on it in your Bible. And you'll stand right up there and say... And then on top of all that, the other bad thing is this, I don't know whether I said this or not when you come over, but I would like to say this and all again, because it is one of the most important parts of the ministry is here and ____ ____ ____. When Moses at the burning bush. Now I'm just gonna cut it up short and, He told Moses when he went down into Egypt, 'Certainly I will be with you.' Now here comes up somebody blind just as blind as a bat and say He wasn't up there in the mountain with him. What you're really doing is making Him out a liar. Said, 'Well, He wasn't with him up there.' All of you understand what I'm talking about? It don't make no difference where Moses went or where he was at, He was with him, the same as, He, He's with you too, whether you recognize His presence or not. And then another thing too about that same thing is just, that burns me a lotta times is they got somebody up there hollering the commands, saying, 'Thou shalt not do this, and that, and the other.' And he don't have no body at all. I mean it don't have no, no body. Now you never heard no body say anything, it has to have some body in order to say something. You run, went around trying to tell somebody that, that, that something said, 'Thus and so forth and so on,' and that, but they didn't have no body. And now you, they, they'd put you in the asylum. Don't make no kinda sense. Well, wouldn't you say so? Somebody says, 'Well, it don't say here there.' It don't make any difference whether it says here there or not. And you know He was where they are. He was, He was with Moses when Moses didn't even know that He was with him. You'll find somebody always trying to play smart. They wanna be, want somebody to listen to 'em and look up to them and hear them. See you're gonna have to find somebody up there in that mount, now that's all there is to that. You're gonna have to, you're gonna have to do that. If there ain't no body up there, now you got a disembodied something or other up there in the mountain giving commands and all like that. It's bad.

PERSON: It makes sense once you explain it. DR. KINLEY: Huh?

PERSON: It doesn't make no, no sense until you explain it. Once you explain it, makes sense to me.

DR. KINLEY: Yeah, that's right. PERSON: It's so simple not to see it, till He let's you see.

DR. KINLEY: Why sure it does. If you tried to tell me that there was something, something somewhere saying something and you can't find nothing of it at all, you have, you don't have no consciousness of it.

(BACKGROUND CHATTER AMONG THE PEOPLE)

The whole entire 40 years that Moses was in the wilderness leading the Children of Israel, we'll just say it that way, He was right with him. Now there's something else that, that, I, I, I, now I wish the ministers would, would bring out more conclusively and ____. Now when they come up to Mount Sinai. Now they pitched the tent of Elohim, or Moses on the back side of the mount. Now listen carefully at what I'm saying and you'll see through of what I'm talking about; in other words, it'll become a reality to you. Now when He called Moses up in the mountain, He showed him how He created everything and told him up in the mount to take of the Children of Israel an offering and make that tabernacle (now listen) that He might dwell among them. Well now, somebody could say this, 'Well, wasn't He among them in the first place?' No. The tent was over there on the other, on the other side, the back side of the mount and He told them to build Him a tabernacle that He might dwell among 'em. Now when the tabernacle was builded, then there was three tribes on each side. Now He was right among them. Now that's important to bring out, and it should be understood. So a lotta times people, they don't, they don't think and so... Then it's just like what you might say, we're the offspring and achieved by the 12 tribes being around.., you're the offspring. It's true that you are, and He is right among you and He dwells right among you and lives among you. Now that's Elohim. Now that was in Joshua. Now the cloud, it covered the tabernacle, that's called, we'll call that the gallant entry of Elohim, not the flesh now, and it entered the tabernacle, and He dwelled there between the wings of the cherubim. Now that don't mean that it's necessary for you to move the tent, this thing right there. Cause all them things that they get people all twisted up and all. Oh the ministry out here is a mess. They don't understand nothing. And what I'm preaching there's an awful lotta people, you'd be surprised, who just don't go to church at all, and don't want to be bothered with it. And you can't blame 'em, cause they hadn't got nothing out of it. It be just like taking your money out here and putting it in the trash can in the back alleyway or in the alley someplace. You don't get nothing for it, nor nothing. Well, says, ' why you doing that?' Well says here to put 'em in the trash can, but you don't get no return nor nothing for it. ____ ____ promise.

And then, but when it comes to explaining something to you, they can't explain nothing because they don't know nothing to explain.

PERSON: Doc, can I ask a question? DR. KINLEY: Yeah.

PERSON: I need you to help and to explain yourself. The law on the inside of the ark and the, and the ordinances on the outside of the ark.

DR. KINLEY: Well, when you say the law and the ordinances...

PERSON: at the table, you was talking about the ordinances, at the table on this side

DR. KINLEY: Now you, when you speak of that, let's say the auxiliary ordinances. It was all embodied within the 10 commandments; in other words, it was all one. That's right. And now the significance, we wanna deal with that just a minute or two, the significance of it. When Moses put this... Now the reason why I'm bringing this up this way is to show you so you'll know how to talk with Jehovah Witnesses and the Ambassador College and others. They say that the Holy Spirit is not in anybody. Now when Moses was.., laid the tables of stones in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy Place, that signified that He would write; it reflected that He would write within your mind or within your conscience, the, the, the New Covenant. That's what it signified, cause the tabernacle was just like your body. And so, by him laying it in the Most Holy Place, the tables of stones, then that signified Him laying or the New Covenant written in your heart and in your inner parts. You understand what I mean? Well now they don't see no parts of none of that, and, and getting dumber all the time. Yes indeed. And I would think this. If them people with a delusion is a terrible thing, but if those people can go up and down the street, and knock on peop.., and knock on people's doors and try their best to convert somebody to their way of seeing things. If they're that way, now here you are with the truth, the real truth, and you can't even come to school; now that's bad, wouldn't you say? And they work just as hard as they can work and just as wrong as they can be. We were going somewhere. I think Roger and I was going down to the fishing tackle store or someplace, and we saw a whole bunch of 'em. There was their leader, ahead, and they was going somewhere ____ ____ ____. Now anybody, just anybody, now listen to what I'm gonna say, just anybody, including them, can look in a dictionary or in an encyclopedia and find that Jehovah is not the true name of the Father. And they got just nerve enough to go out here and tell people, and, and got it in their book too, that Jehovah is not the true name. Now what do you think about that?

Now ____ ____ ____. I'll tell you something else too. The people underestimate, they underestimate the power of Yahweh, and they, and the power of the devil. They under estimate the power of both. Course there is no power but of Yahweh. Yahweh is, I mean the devil and his power, he doesn't have any power of his own, but they underestimate him. I have, I've tried to say it both ways so you can follow through. But they underestimate the power of Yahweh. And then I'll tell you something else. We need to get along and set on this with both feet and that's this: institution and fulfillment, course we've been on that. And you don't need to re.., let up on it, and the names. And now another thing too. Now, if you see a cloud with rain starting to come up on you, and the lightning in that cloud sets off, and those temperatures, then you got thunder. And a lotta people, just a whole lotta 'em don't make no difference about what you believe, but when that terrific thunder there, and even the fishes they'll go down and lay right on the bottom, lay quiet until that rain, until that thunder will go. Assuming it thunders enough to shake the earth where they are, right down to the bottom of the ocean. And you, now you ain't catching the fish then, because he ain't biting. But what I'm trying to point out is this: in II Peter the 3rd chapter the earth will pass away with such a great noise. Now you talking about fear. Fear that you've never experienced before. It'll pass away, in the book, tell you with a great noise and the elements melt with fervent heat. Then the pope won't be near as bold to stand up in, in town and spew out a bunch of ignorance and foolishness. Now I think about it all of that all the time. You can take an earthquake and shake up a lotta people. Some of them are running or afraid of that, but this is what they do.., or a volcano is erupting, this is what they do: just as soon as the lava quit flowing down the side of the mountain and setting everything on a fire, they flee from the, that lava is being spilled forth and just as soon as that eruption is over like with Mount Vesuvius, then they moved right back in the same area. Now how about that? They go back there and see if they can find any thing of their personal belongings whether it wasn't destroyed or consumed by the fire and then say, 'This is my property here.' And just right back up in under the mountain Vesuvius and all again. Then the earthquake happened. Right straight back and build up by the mountain. ____ ____

____. It just looks like people would have better sense but they just don't. They don't. And they are awful boasters and proud, haughty and high minded. As it says in the first chapter of Romans there, the last few verses, But when the thing really comes down and they loose, just like a little child out in the street there in the nude, nude in the street there. A little child out there with the diapers on and nobody even around, just a little child out there. He genuinely didn't deal with it with saving that child. Then they did and took care of it because it had no mother and no father, and everything around it was destroyed. And how it survived, they don't know. But with their high mind, what I'm saying is, they're high minded and they're haughty and stubborn and hateful and mean until something happens. Yahweh knows how to humble you and bring you on down. You just can't, you, you don't think until the inevitable happens, and then you begin to think. Well it's just, it's a terrible thing. Now Jehovah Witnesses going around saying this: the reason why I brought that up, they're saying that the heavens and the earth won't pass away. They mean by saying this: Solomon said, 'one generation goes and the other comes, but the earth abides forever.' And then they mean by that, it ain't gonna pass away. I tell you what they're, what they're doing is trying to say something different than somebody else is saying. That's, that's what they're saying, that's what they're doing: trying to say something different than somebody else and trying to tell you you were wrong about what you think and then know good and well that they're wrong as they can be. And then they go water baptizing, they oughta do the whole thing. My brother's boy, ever after Benny was dead and we were there ____ ____ in school. And he couldn't, well he didn't, he never did attend our school, but he's next to the oldest. And he says, 'Well, I sure am tired, I baptized over 200 people today.'

Now he thought that was smart. Showing up. You, you wasn't talking to me, if he was I'd be cussing him out. That child, he was baptizing 200 people that day. But I'll say this, as strange as it may seem, and it is one for the book, I mean Roger Ripley: you're the only people, religious as all people, that are talking about instituting and fulfilling and the correct names. And now when we take that in account, when you take that in account, now, now listen what I'm gonna say, everybody, don't forget it either: it proves that there much of satanic spirits of existence and they are cast out and they are incarnated in these physical bodies that's causing them to say and do and act as they're acting. That's what it is. And it could very well be in you, it could, course it could be in anybody else, that is if you won't accept the truth, then that's what's keeping you from accepting it. You all, do you all understand me now? Which they go right on and reading it and saying it's wrong. Saying he, this was done and he went to John the Baptist and suffered Himself, permitted to be so for it behooves us to fulfill all righteousness. Then look here, now listen what I'm gonna say (now as a rule we carry this part of the way, we ought to carry it all the way) and that's this: He went through life, when He went through His ministry (now listen what I'm going to say now and pay strict attention to it) we show where He went to John the Baptist, anybody can read, the Jehovah's Witnessses or anybody will, can read that. He told him that would.., to permit it to be so, or suffer it to be so, for it behooves us to fulfill all righteousness. Now that's the beginning of His ministry. Course, now His birth was a fulfillment, and...

(TAPE 1 SIDE 2)

... And then He goes to the cemetery, the grave, that's a fulfillment too. Resurrects from the dead, that's a fulfillment. Tarries 40 days, that's a fulfillment cause that'd be 40 days on each side, you see what I'm gonna... And then step aboard a cloud. I'm trying to put this in terms you can understand it, you can explain about the cloud and the physical body and afterwards, but what I'm saying, He stepped aboard a cloud and He went all the way into heaven. Peter said He'd gone on into heaven. Now contending that what He was doing was fulfilling, not instituting no Lord Suppers, not instituting no Christian water baptism, none, none, none, no parts of none of it. Now here's what I'm saying: if He made it into heaven contending that He was fulfilling, now don't you see where you, where you're going to contending He instituted? Now that's clean. Now you can look back there in the scriptures and see this: see Him coming out of Egypt under the cloud, see this cloud, they're following this cloud all the way. And then when they picked up the ark of the covenant and packed up and moved across the River Jordan under the cloud. That's typical and symbolical of Jerusalem there or Palestine here, is a, the Holy Land is allegorical to heaven. Now that's why He had to go all the way in. I'm just.., that's the reason why He had to ascend on a cloud. Well.

PERSON: Doc, I have a question

DR. KINLEY: Shoot. If I can't answer it, somebody else in here will. (PEOPLE LAUGH)

PERSON: Tuesday night. ____ all in the same vein. Now I realize what it's like to have a dream and all and I was thinking of also Paul when he had his revelation he was talking about, whether he's in the body or out of the body only Yahweh knew. Now, what will, for a lack of a better word, what will a person actually experience when he undergoes a change from a, from a natural body to a spiritual body, where it be glorified or, or, or damned. I mean would you have, will a person have consciousness of them ever being in the flesh or what, the transition, I mean what type of an experience will it be and will it, will it, will a person be aware of this change, obviously the soul will be aware of this right?

DR. KINLEY: Dr. Harris, do you understand what he's talking about. Can you explain it to him.

DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Yes, now my understanding on that.., change'll be quick, quicker than a blink of your eye as far as that change is gonna happen spiritually. Paul said over in 15th chapter of I Corinthians in a moment in a twinkling of an eye, we shall all be changed. So you can, you can take his word for it. That's not gonna be like what you think. No, it's going to be instantaneous. Now was there a second part to your question.

PERSON: Now the second part was. Okay now I, I understand that, when you die you just I mean you're gone.

DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Oh yeah, I got it, the other part was about remembering. Now then, over in Revelations you got your answer to that. John said that He will wipe all tears from our eyes and we wouldn't remember the former sorrow that you knew before. We won't have no remembrance of it. Different things, such as remembering you ____ ____ mother ____.

PERSON: Yeah okay.

DR. KINLEY: And if you did, let me add something to it, then you'd be in as much torment then as you are now.

PERSON: Okay. Now Yahweh, being as repetitious as He is, and overturning and overturning and overturns. Will there be another physical creation like this one.

DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Well now there, back in eternity, Yahweh determines what's back, what's to be in this series of ages He's running or His spirit manifests in other words when these ages are complete now you're only in the fourth one now, you have three more to go after this. And when you come to this one and others here in at the end of this series of ages, then Yahweh or we will decide what the next one will be.

PERSON: Even though it was purposed back in eternity even before it took on a shape and form and Yahweh Elohim, it was purposed back in there.

DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Yeah it was determined and causes what this would be, what you're experiencing now. This one, you have 7 ages, so every bit of it thus far to its end or finish were decided back there. Now you were back there with Him, but you have no consciousness of it. Every aspect of this, all this was predetermined back there. But this has, now this has got a run it's complete course. When you go over into the next age you supposed to be equipped with, you still have creations to go before you complete this series of ages. Now right where, here's where you're gonna be, this program was set up back there. Now when, when this one's completed, then that's when we with Yahweh will decide the next series of ages.

PERSON: I'd like to supplement that by saying that ____ ____ ____ 13 chapter of Paul, 13 chapter of 1st Corinthians. Said that now abideth faith, hope and charity, that is to say love. And he said just the point that when that which is perfect is come, that in part shall be done away. Now we know that the physical creation is imperfect, it's limited, it's finite. This is a section in the program, as Dr. Harris said, but then once we have arrived in immortality, there won't be no reason for a repetition of the imperfect, cause once you have arrived at perfect there won't be any place for the imperfect.

DR. RONALD GRIGGS: You mean in other words, what you're, what you're implying is that there doesn't necessarily mean that there'd be another physical creation.

PERSON: Not fleshly, there's just no need for it.

DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Now let me just, let me say, let me say, now what I've told you, you might not know where, what was my authority for saying what I said. My authority was what I have already been taught by Dr. Kinley. So, there's no speculations there. Now if you're gonna speculate, then you have as many speculatory theoretical opinions as there are people in this room. But I just gave it to you like it's been taught to me; in other words, without that, I wouldn't have no idea or concept about it. And you won't find, as far as I can see, and this is a thought that I've often, oftentimes comes to my mind. Now you got Moses's vision and you got John's vision, then you got someone else's vision which is most panoramic of them all. Now this man told us things that we knew we didn't find recorded in Moses's vision or John's. And that's what we talk about now. John doesn't tell you nothing about it, and neither does Moses. Now he, in just, his is just as authoritative as Moses or John, and you'd do well to just take it just like He give it to you as he lays it down. I remember when you were around, you used to sit around Dr. Kinley.

DR. KINLEY: Now can I just say this one thing. Now you cannot supersede the authority of and the revelation of Yahweh. Now I spoke up to say this. Now while we are at home in the body, we are absent from Yahweh. Now, not that He's absent from us, we're absent from Him. But then will we be present with Him and we shall (that's in the book I'm talking about) then so, we shall ever be with Him; and being with Him and a part of Him, we suffer no ill consequences of anything. You don't have any experience of anything. Well, let's, let's see if we can patch it up by saying this. Right now you see there's a lot of murders and all that's going on all over the world, and unpleasant things, earthquakes and what hot and people are bowed down in sorrow, in grief and all those different kinda things. Well with Yahweh it is not that as of now. It is not, it this it isn't a grievous thing with Him because He determined it to be this way. And He's not grieved, because His purpose is being executed. So now when we are with Him and be as He is, then nothing can be grievous at all, because we'll forever be with Him, and eternal happiness. That's the reason why to go on and to speculate that there would be another physical creation like this and people would be suffering like they are now, now that's speculating. You don't have, you don't have, you don't have nothing to say that with. Then, on top of all that, let's, let's, let's make this real good and clear. The angels that were in heaven and cast out of heaven and now in, held in what you might say chains of darkness waiting the day of judgment to be appointed. I just put it, I'm trying to put it in some terms that you can understand. Now, if they're in bondage, having experienced those things, and have to be punished, then they will never be loosened and so they can give you any trouble at all. They're, they are that part of Yahweh, that's, that's not conscious to grief and all those different kinda things. Do you all understand?

Now I'm, I'm struggling for words to explain it to you. But if we are with Him, now as I, listen I tried to make it clean and clear when I said while we're at home in the body we're absent from Him. And Paul said there and he used a statement there that whether in the body or out of the body he couldn't tell, but now, it is stated, we're stating now that we're that we're out of the body, that is to say this flesh has been consummated and we have an immortal body. And an immortal body and an immortal spirit, which is Yahweh, we will ever be with Him and there will be no grief. That's the reason why let me say it this way, that's the reason why the angels, when they flew through the midst of heaven crying holy, holy, holy art thou, there was no grief there. There's nothing for them to be sorry over and about, because they're in another realm, another state of existence. Do you understand what I'm talking about? Do you really follow me? Does every body else? Does anybody got any questions to ask about that. If so, let's have them. It wouldn't be, it, it, it wouldn't be worthwhile going, undergoing a whole lotta persecution and suffering and all them different kinds of things, if there's, if there's gonna be some more of it. If you wasn't gonna be liberated from it, why then, there, there, there, it, it just don't make no sense. Now some people have got this kinda an idea about things, which is wrong too. That they say, 'Well, look, if it's just to be consummated, in the consummation it won't take but a minute or two then it'll all be all over so what's the hell's the use for me'(I'm using the expressions they use) 'me being all this somehow about everything.' They don't realize they're unconscious of the purpose, of the power of Yahweh, of, and the suffering, even let's put it this way, even in your physical body that you can undergo right here walking around. They are unconscious of, of the sufferings that can take place while you're right in this physical body, it's unbearable.

And would, would make anybody regardless of what their conviction was, it'd make them say, 'Have mercy on...' if there's anybody at all, and if there's anything anywhere, don't make no difference what it is, 'Please let have it.' They're, they're unconscious of the suffering and the pain and the agony and the misery and all, while they're doing all this big talk. So likewise when it comes to the other side of the life, you won't be conscious of this in the other side of life, the suffering and all, because it'll be constant joy and bliss, we might say. And such won't come into mind at all. Then as Dr. Harris has stated, everything is back now and now I'm speaking now, from a, give you Bible now, of the 15th chapter of I Corinthians. And I've tried my best to bring it out in verse 28. Then shall the Son lay down all authority and all power and then just give it back to Him that put all things under Him, that Yahweh might be all in all. Now Yahweh has no suffering and has no unhappiness and no unpleasantness to go through with. He is the one that determines and then it's I or we, meaning this: that it will all be where we started from, the angels and all. Now how about that? Now that's the way it was revealed to me. Now then anybody can doctor it up, fix to suit yourself, but that's the way it was revealed to me, that's the way it was shown to me. And that's what I tried to teach. Now that brings me, now I think I could say this too, along with that; which is the unconsciousness of it. And I tried to, one time in my life that I remember to bring this out, here not too long ago, because I knew it was overlooked, and that is: the 24 chapter, I believe, of Exodus, that Moses was in the Mount 40 days and 40 nights and the cloud was a devouring fire in the sight of the Children of Israel. A devouring... Now the word devouring and consuming is the same. Now what I'm saying now, listen to what I'm saying, don't miss the boat on this one.

Now if He's a consuming and a devouring fire. Consummated everything consummated. And then you go back into that state of a, well let's say, that's Yahweh in His totality, it's a hard thing for me to say. But now then in that, they don't, you, what I'm saying is: that's the lake. Now that is the lake, that you, that the people read right over, and reading about the lake all the time and and He is a consuming fire, but they don't recognize it. They don't realize it. Where even when they're looking right at it. Now that's not like the Children of Israel, three Hebrew children were cast in the fiery furnace and all that. This is a consuming fire, and then everything will be back in order. Now when I say order, I'm talking about in it's proper perspective, in it's proper place, that Yahweh might be all in all. Now how about that? Then, I or we shall determine what is to be in the next series of ages. Now the reason why I said that is because Yahweh is eternal. He is, He always was and He always will be, not governed by time, He, He's, He's eternal. And that's the reason why I said that. Does everybody understand me on, on, on this score. Ain't nobody sleep, no hand, no noise nowhere. That's what makes it worthwhile: for you to be what you ought to be and not violate the law of the spirit or your conscience. Now don't violate your conscience. Now a man or a person shouldn't allow themselves to do that which condemns them. Understand what I'm talking about? Don't do it that way. Now somebody else comes along and says, 'Well that's wrong for you to drink coffee,' but that doesn't necessarily condemn you. It may them. Why? Because they haven't, have never been elevated to the place that you have. And we just think that's terrible. But nevertheless then never, there's a whole lot of other things, just any number of things that people are unaware of. It doesn't violate my conscience. I drink, for example, take a drink of bourbon or brandy or something, and that don't bother my conscience at all. Now I take some drinks, I've been, just before we left Gary Mathess brought it over there to us and Babe Hodoh brought some too. And that which Babe Hodoh brought is a little harder, a portion of it was there in this bottle right now, Brandy. But now it hurt. Now I paid the bill, I paid the bill myself. Nobody else has to suffer but me on the account of what I did there. Now that, that, that, that, that's paid for. If you eat or drink something, it can be deadly poison and what, what, what not, but the poison's there, what the Messiah was talking about, is what you're been eating all you life until you got in this school, you been drinking all your life that's the deadly poison. It isn't something physical, but if you eat something physical and it don't set so well with you, why then you pay the bill. You're the one that has to do the suffering.

PERSON: Doc DR. KINLEY: Yes. PERSON: mentioned ____ ____ ____ ____ about the 2nd death a little bit.

DR. KINLEY: The 2nd death?

PERSON: Yes.

DR. KINLEY: Well the first death, the first death was... Let's put it right there. Adam died the first death for his wife. It was executed and Yahweh executed that on him cause him; in other words, caused a deep sleep to fall upon him. It's just like an anesthetic. And then he was just the same as dead, innocently so. Now the people, well meaning people, out there do things, following religion and all, which really idolatry, but Yahweh winked at it, but just as soon as you find out that it's wrong right there and if you don't stop, then you have that execution of that second death. And you're dead while you're yet living. And I'm not talking about being hauled off to the cemetery either.

EUGENE HODOH: Doc, I have a question in regards to Moses when he came down from the mount and his face was shown, shown so that he had to put a vail on.

DR. KINLEY: Can you hold it a minute? EUGENE HODOH: Yes, sir. DR. KINLEY: I want to know whether ____ was clear on what I did say there? PERSON: Yeah. I... DR. KINLEY: Sit PERSON: I said, Yeah doc ____ ____ ____ DR. KINLEY: Okay, that's alright. Now proceed.

PERSON: In regards to Moses coming down from the mountain having to put a vail on his face when he talked to the people. Could you go into that a little bit?

DR. KINLEY: Well yes. He was in the presence of Yahweh, the incorporeal form, let me put it like that. And I'll say it this way too, even you or anybody else that even as of new, that is filled with the Holy Spirit it just simply permeates the flesh, it manifests itself like you can't hide it to save your life, but if that condemnation is in there, then it will manifest itself now. I said that to say this. The person that is filled with the Holy Spirit, another person that is filled with the Holy Spirit, they see the permeation, they see it manifested out. The vail then, has been taken away, you or the flesh has been rent and you're looking into the spiritual things. Do you understand?

PERSON: Yes, sir, I think so.

DR. KINLEY: Is there anybody else. Did everybody else understand what I'm talking about? Lotta times when people'll do things and try to stand up something, and they're looking down and they can't look you straight in the eye and all like that. Something wrong upstairs, you're lying and it's telling on you. But when you're doing that which is right and, and now there may be something wrong there somewhere, and now here's what I mean by that. But you don't know that there's anything wrong and the Holy Spirit will teach you and lead you and guide you in all righteousness. And as soon as you come upon or something is revealed to you that you have been doing that is wrong, why then you quit, and it continues to permeate. You can just tell, just look a person in the face. You can see it in anybody. People try to get up and swear by all that's holy that they're right and you can just see the countenance done failed.

DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Going back to something you were talking about ____ ____ ____ ____ cause we know it is a tenant of the world teaching out there is: when they die they'll go to heaven with God and live happy and joyous and so forth and so on. Course that's supposed to happen to them all of a sudden, when the end come, they don't know when that is, they look forward to it, but now with us that understand, we've already been translated into the kingdom as Paul said in Romans 14: 17 the kingdom of heaven is righteousness, peace and joy. Now we're supposed to be, we're supposed to have the earnest of the inheritance now. And we're supposed to be experiencing some feeling of that righteousness, peace, and joy as of now. Well now if we aren't, there's something amiss. Now we're going on to greater joy after this here, at the consummation but we're supposed to have a portion of that now. That's the thing that permits you, ____ ____ ____ so to speak; in other words, you know beyond a shadow of a doubt what you're going unto it, because you have it as of now. You're not hoping for it because you're already.., that hope is already...

STUDENT BODY: Okay.

DR. KINLEY: Yes that's right. Now that brings me around to say something else. And I put this off a long time, and I haven't... You women remember? Some of you were in this school here, some of you were not. I said that I had a, what I call, just for the sake of understanding, a sermon that I wanted to preach about the women. Now I can say it this way and then it can be appreciated without even an expression. And suppose Babe, somebody has a Bible there, suppose you look at the 5th chapter of the Song of Solomon. Now here's a man that's had 700 wives and 300 concubines. Now he ought to know something about by experience. And I'll just get this load off of my chest right now, because I can say what I wanna say and then you can, the men folk can appreciate it and a woman too can appreciate it because it works, this whole room gonna work both ways. The 5th chapter and sixth verse. I know Dr. Harris knows what it says there and read. He's finding out what page it's on.

DR. ROBERT HARRIS: I thought it was right after 12, and I see it's after Ecclesiastes.

DR. KINLEY: He hasn't much use for the Song of Solomon. (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS)

PERSON: Alright. I get it. DR. KINLEY: Now what page is it on? (DR. KINLEY LAUGHS) PERSON: Okay what'd you want? The 5th chapter. What verse? DR. KINLEY: 5th, it, I think it 5th, 6th verse. 6th verse I think it is. PERSON: I opened to my beloved but my beloved hath withdrawn himself DR. KINLEY: No, that ain't it. No. He has set me as a seal upon... PERSON: Well, what, what? Do you remember it, doc? DR. KINLEY: It's about the 8th chapter os Song of Solomon. PERSON: 8:6. 8th chapter, the 6th verse. DR. KINLEY: That's right. It's been a long time.

PERSON: Set me as a seal up on thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm. For love is strong as the death.

DR. KINLEY: Now just like that. Now that's unexpressible on his own ____ and he is saying, but to experience it is a different thing. You know when you lost your mother or your father or your wife or someone in your family. Now love is just as strong as death, that's something that you experience within yourself. Now what Solomon is talking about is the Church and, and the woman.

PERSON: What doc?

DR. KINLEY: The church as, which is a woman. Now he says, 'Set me as a seal upon thy heart as a seal upon thine arm for love, love is strong as death.' For example, now you say John 3:16. 'God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish.' Now love is strong as death. Now I'm telling you and this is what I'm trying to show you: a man that loves a woman, that real genuine love, not talking about lust, I'm talking about love now, love is an attribute. It's as strong as death. Nothing can break it or come between it because it's just as strong as death. You will not give it up under no circumstances, He... It would be just like Adam was, he died for his bride because love is as strong as death. Now that's unexpressible and it has to be experienced. Those words are there, you can express the words but the experience of it is a different thing. Alright, now read on.

PERSON: jealously is cruel as the grave

DR. KINLEY: Now jealousy, it's now that's cruel. Now some of us has got that thing twisted right around the other way. Jealousy is as cruel as the grave. Alright.

PERSON: the coals thereof DR. KINLEY: the coals thereof PERSON: are coals of fire

DR. KINLEY: are coals of fire. That's kindled within an individual, either love or jealousy is kindled within the person. Alright, read on.

PERSON: which has a most vehement flame DR. KINLEY: which has a most vehement flame PERSON: many waters cannot quench love

DR. KINLEY: Now listen there. Now I, you can put him in the Pacific Ocean, and there's many waters... Cannot quench it's thirst. It just can't be done away with. That's, that's, that's the essence of it. Love there is just indispensable. Alright, read.

PERSON: Neither can the floods drown it DR. KINLEY: See it can't drown it. PERSON: if a man would give all of his substance of his house for love

DR. KINLEY: Now listen here now, now you get this straight, get this straight: if a man would give all that he possess including his body for love. Then what?

PERSON: it, it would be, would utterly be contemned

DR. KINLEY: Then you just say, you just, it's just a waste, you just can't purchase it with, with nothing. It's indispensable. And you, if you had a billion dollars and you was gonna pay a billion dollars for love you couldn't, it's not that won't that won't do nothing. That won't even touch it. Now I just give you that little bit there, which has always been within me. Now that's a man for a woman, typifying and showing the church. And it is a man, there's Solomon that has had 700 wives and 300 concubines. Actually spiritually. He wouldn't, He'd rather die and in that He realized that even in death it, that it, it just wouldn't compensate or it wouldn't replace. Now that's, now that's love for a woman. That's love typified as the church. Now there's another one in there, I don't remember in the, in the book. Now it talks about a lewd woman, says her steps lead, that's in Proverbs2 that Solomon's talking about it. Yes, sir. And he says there her steps lead down to the lowest hell there is. That's just bad. True love. And true lewdness is a terrible thing. I meant, I don't mean terrible, true love, it's just indispensable. And now a man, a woman do something that he has love for, genuine love for, if he see her do something that cut his very heart, cut him so deep until he would rather just die than ____ go through, just much rather die than to even go through ____. Now a lewd woman ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____, I could say this in conjunction and relation and slip one right in between there by saying this, that, that's why there's so many divorce cases is because they just went and married for sexual conveniences and so forth and so on, or money or something like that and there wasn't any love there. And so then that makes, makes quite a bit of difference. But where there's genuine love there and there's no money ____, can't do anything with it at all, nothing in the world that can do anything with the love. It's indispensable. But a bad woman... Now the reason why I characterize it as the church and then put it on the individual back there and say...

END OF TAPE _______________

2 Proverbs 7:27